Need Help! Lethargic, wobbly.

[spiritedaway20]

I want to get Samson his nightly fresh foods and water only to find him weak and lethargic and maybe a bit cooler than normal. He actually sat still in my hand and tried to sleep so I knew something was wrong. He was wobbly and off balance when walking, squinty eyes at times and falling asleep in my hand, but then started perking up again. I've been trying to observe his gait...I put him down to see how he walks, and he tips over/off balance and sometimes falls off my shrit when trying to climb (almost like he has no idea it's happening?). He might seem stiff...or like he is hopping a bit (MBD? stroke?). He can't seem to hold onto my clothes or climb very well and has flopped off onto the bed (not from a big distance no worries). But then he climbs again adn maes it up. As I have been holding him he has gotten more inquisitve, less squinty and hyper.....but his movements are not matching his energy I guess.

I know I may be repeating myself....but his claws are not sticking in my shirt or anything and he can jump up on me (he keeps wanting ot jump up and climb). He seems inquisitve, but like a tired....drugged..and wobbly way. His fur looks fine, breathing is great and not labored.

As far as vets go my best bet is to wait for tomorrow morning for his normal vet that has treated squirrels before.

Little Update as I have posted this:
He doesn't seem interested in a hazelnut I tried to give him, which is odd for him. He did seem to nibble a pine nut. I have him in his smaller travel cage now for observation. He is A LOT more perky than before...I still feel this may be MBD or a stroke...Any ideas?

If it is MBD:
I have esbilac, half and half, deer antlers for chewing, MAYBE a cuttlebone somewhere (I use mainly a beak block), tums and avitron vitamins. I ran out of yogurt and the other stuff I had went bad...I can run out and get cuttle bones, yogurt, etc tomrrow.

[Joan]

Getting to a your vet is the best bet. If it is MBD, here's a treatment plan:
MBD Treatment
Get some Dannon yogurt (fruit flavored is fine) or cottage cheese.

Get some broccoli since it contains both calcium and Vitamin D2 which a flyer can convert into D3.

Yogurt, cottage cheese and broccoli can be doctored with peanut butter for flavor if rejected, but most flyers will eat them both.

Get some type of rodent or mammal liquid vitamins such as LM that contains Vitamin D3.

Add three drops per ounce of water for a week or two

Then go to 1-2 drops per ounce of water.

Make sure this is the only source of water for several weeks.

Be sure not to overdo the Vitamin D treatment as it can cause decalcification resulting in a calcium deficiency.

If you think it is severe enough and it could be fatal, a trip to a vet is a good idea. Tell them she has Metabolic Bone Disease, MBD and needs calcium and Vitamin D. They can inject a small amount under the skin where it will get absorbed quicker.

For the future prevention:
Get a calcium block, cuttle bone, and mineral spool for the cage.
Make sure dark green veggies get added to the diet.
Add 1-2 drops liquid vitamins per ounce of water about 2-3 times per week along with a plain water source.

[peep]

Did this come on suddenly, or have you noticed slight but odd behavior during the past few days? If it occurred overnight, it may be head injury.

Seeing the vet is best right now.
peep

[spiritedaway20]

Update:
In my panic last night, I had given him a littel bit of esbilac (just enough to mix the calciuma nd d3 in) andhe ate that. I also made up an electrolyte liquid for him because it seemed he was weak and I worried he might not have been able to get to water. He seems a lot better this morning (huge change). Not wobbly in the least, much stronger, no squinty eyes, and he had eaten the little pieces of fish (good calcium source) and apple (this was just a food filler) that I saw him slowly nibble on last night. I just gave him some apple to see if he would eat it, and he was really into it, so that's a good sign. He doesn't seem like he is falling off me when climbing now. He has been a bit nippy though. Not sure if any of these things are related.

I think a vet visit is still in order, regardless.

Thanks Joan and Peep!

Joan, he has deer antler, beak block, and gets food sprinkled with reptical. He also gets vitamins and yogurt. I'll buy some cuttlebone and mineral wheel today (and pick up more yogurt), just in case. I had those at one point, in his cage, but didn't replace them after the deer antler and beak block.

Peep..as far as I know it appeared suddenly, but in hindsight, he didn't really use his wheel yesterday, nor did he come out much. What should the vet do to check for head injury? is an xray in order?



Thanks again for your help.

[Joan]

... What should the vet do to check for head injury?

Most will be on clinical signs and symptoms. How you describe the behavior.

... is an xray in order?.

That can pick up severe MBD, but I personally saw one done on a flyer with early MBD and nothing showed up. Vet will likely not do any extensive testing if he's improving on his own. These little guys can heal so fast it's amazing.

[spiritedaway20]

Ok Joan, thank you for responding again. He does seem to be doing well. I would go insane without you guys though. I bought cuttlbone, mineral and salt wheels, yogurt, veggie/fruit baby food (just in case) and and some mushrooms for him. I wasn't able to get a vet appointment today, but got an appointment for tomorrow (tuesday) in the am. He is doing very well, but he is still moody and nippy so I still want to get him checked out, plus there's another issue (see below).

As if this all wasn't enough to make me worry...he degloved his tail He was climbing in my shirt and well,, I have no idea what happened. Upon him coming out of my shirt, I thought a feather floated down on my hand (nope it was the tip of his tail). I had layers on so maybe he got it caught in one of them...do you think this is at all related to how skittish/nippy moody he has been too? Are they more likely to do this when feeing extra scared etc? I'm glad that vet appointment is tomorrow!!

Also...is a blood test going to far? Is that too stressful since they are so small, or would it show calcium levels and be worth it? Thanks for the info on the xrays.

[Joan]

... As if this all wasn't enough to make me worry...he degloved his tail ...do you think this is at all related to how skittish/nippy moody he has been too?

It sure would make me nippy! Are you sure it's degloved ... only the bone would be showing, skin off. I ask this as Mishi is in a full molt and looks God awful. Most of her rear end is bare.

...Are they more likely to do this when feeing extra scared etc? I'm glad that vet appointment is tomorrow!!

Vet can check out everything.

...Also...is a blood test going to far? Is that too stressful since they are so small, or would it show calcium levels and be worth it?

Enough blood is not easy to get. They usually take it from the tail vein. Depends on what the vet thinks after seeing her and hearing about all the signs and symptoms. The fact that she is better is a good sign. Blood work can tell a lot and helps the vet make a diagnosis if he/she is uncertain or needs additional data. It is not without risk if she has to be anesthetized. If vet has rodent experience, I'd go with their clinical judgement about this.

[peep]

These are a lot of symptoms. I'm very anxious to hear what the vet says. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a genetic issue, or an inability to absorb nutrients.

For head or nerve trauma, the vet would check the eyes, motor skills, gait while walking /climbing, and reactions to light and stimulus. Also if he is weak or listing to one side, and general alertness.

Please let us know what the vet has to say.
peep

[spiritedaway20]

Hi Guys! We went to the vet today. I will post later tonight with the details (because I want to make sure I say everything)! I just came on to post real quick and just noticed I am late with getting some work done. Looking forward to discussing it with you all.

[spiritedaway20]

Thanks for responding Joan and Peep! I went to the vet in the AM (and then had to rush to pet store for supplies and then back to work!). I finally get to sit down to type this! It's a loooooong post. I mean LONG.

To answer your question Joan: Yes! I was 100% sure it was degloved. The vet confirmed this when I got there too. The vet recommended I just let it dry up and fall off as clipping it would be traumatic.

Now, for everything else. The vet remembered Reepacheep and agreed this squirrel was much bigger (already at such a young age in comparison). I told him all the symptoms and everything that I typed here about the esbliac etc. He palpated (spelling?) his tummy and checked him out (which was a challenge because Samson was trying to escape and run around all over the poor vet). His gait wasn't off and he was able to grasp fine...he was even clutching on to the vet's shirt for dear life. He said his liver and kidneys etc seem fine (good size) and that he looks just fine. I don't think he thought it was a head injury etc because he examined him and was watching him move.

I mentioned right off the bat that I think he either hit his head, had MBD (which he knows about), or had some other issue that caused the off balance behavior etc. After having checked him out he said that a blood test wouldn't be the best idea to test for MBD because sometimes when they take the blood test, the blood test will pick up good calcium levels in an animal with MBD due to the fact that MBD leeches calcium from the bones (like osteoperosis). He also said (without me saying anything about what you guys said) that xrays don't show MBD until it's very very severe, so that xrays wouldn't be that helpful either. I think he still offered it to me, but he said it was extremely unlikely we would see something since bones de-calcify at random spots and levels with MBD.

The vet also asked me about supplements and what I was using for calcium and I told him I was using avitron multi-vitamin (liquid multivitamin). He told me to use PRIME powdered bird vitamins instead (it has the most calcium of any vitamin supplement too), especially since liquid vitamins lose their potency quickly in water. He told me to use the PRIME everyday for 2 weeks and repcal once a week, then I can go down to PRIME 2-3 days a week and rep-cal once every week. He said this should help it if it's the MBD, even if he is acting normal now.

We also discussed diet in general....I told him about Reepacheep's necropsy results and about how Samson had the same issue gaining weight/not eating a whole lot or storing fat as Reepacheep did and that Samson also arrived underweight and too young (they are from the same breeder so that I didn't beat myself up about the variables). I asked if it would be good to take out his wheel once in awhile, and he said “no” and that the wheel is soooo beneficial long run it's not worth it to do so .

Overall, he said that there could be a few things at play here:


1).Metabolism: The vet said that he may just have a fast metabolism or certain individual things at play (didn't ask him if this was genetic, but I'm guessing that's what he means too), therefore he needs more calories and I need to feed Samson more than what others might do for their squirrels. However, I told him I give Samson loads of food, but that he just never gains weight and sometimes he doesn't seem to pig out as much as I hear other squirrels do (Reepacheep had the same issue)......which leads me to point 2).


2). Diet: I told him I have trouble getting Samson to eat monkey biscuits, rat blocks, etc in addition to seeds, nuts and veggies/fruit. I also tried HHB on Reepacheep and he got sick from it I think (regurgitating and got ill) but I didn't mention that to the vet and it could have been a coincidence. Plus, I thought it may overdose him on vitamins in combo with PRIME vitamins. He recommended I try OxBow pellets and said that he would research it for me and gave me the website so I could research it myself. We both thought the rat formula might be best, but we'll see.
He said that with picky eaters, OxBow is usually well-accepted and that they only use timothy hay in some formulas. He said this would be better for Samson than the bird food/pellets I suggested (just to get him to eat more) because it has safe doses of Vitamin A. He said bird seed/pellets have too much Vitamin A and that can possibly lead to fatty liver.

3).MBD: He said that if it is MBD (which we are testing to see with the new supplements etc), this could also be what is causing the lack of fat storage/appetite.

So, if he improves with the new calcium regimen, I'd say it was MBD. If he improves with the new diet, it could be picky eater. I will note that both Reepacheep and Samson never ate as much formula as they should have and I fed them the same seed mixes/supplements and food people on here were feeding. Reepacheep and Samson have had a similar diet too and Reepacheep I don't think ever showed MBD issues.

I would also think a good part would be genetic as well (metabolism issue vet brought up maybe?) and what Peep said about inability to properly absorb nutrients (which I felt deeply in my gut was Reepacheeps' problem). I got Samson from the same breeder as Reepacheep because she offered to replace him, but more importantly....because I wanted to keep ALL variables the same! But...diet and supplements plays a roll too and it could have been both that and genetics (one not helping the other). I know 100% sure that Reepacheep was just like that. With Samson, since he didn't arrive so sick and was clearly bigger, it could very well be poor husbandry too or just that. Soooo.....yeah. We will have to experiment and see!



I told the vet about the NFSA and that we have a database for necropsies to gain knowledge on health, diet, etc and that we have a forum to help flyer owners as a whole. He was VERY interested and asked me for the website, so I gave it to him. I think he is very interested in the subject and really wants to help


Phew...I should get this bound in a book it's so long! Sorry!!! I'm incredibly long-winded. If you need me to cut it down, let me know and I will edit!! I never know how much detail to give.

[Joan]

Thanks for the great report! Keeps us informed so we know how he does. It's good info about his diet recommendations and will be interesting to see how he does.

[peep]

Thanks for the great report! Keeps us informed so we know how he does. It's good info about his diet recommendations and will be interesting to see how he does.

Yes, thank you. You shared a wealth of information with us. I know it was a bad experience for you to go through, but the information will help all of us in the future. I'm impressed with your vet, and will also research the products he suggested.

I won't go into my usual tirade about commercial breeders, but most chronic health issues occur in animals that are purchased from them. Quantity wins over quality when it comes to $$$.
peep

[spiritedaway20]

Thanks Joan and Peep! Samson has been doing very well and his mood seems to improving...I'm not sure if that would really be the effect of the vitamins and food though since it seems to be so soon. The first night I put pellets covered in PRIME in his cage, he looked like he was eating them and was eager to try them, but then I discovered he was just wasting them mostly (like a parrot often does). I think he was doing what he does to nuts (peels them), but once he figured out they ARE the food, he was more apt to eat it. I think the fact that the PRIME smells like sweet vanilla helps too! He is less nippy and seems to be more "him". There was less waste the second night (and some pellets were gone and not hidden) so I think he knows what to do with them now. Still not sure how they will work out. I've been giving him crushed monkey biscuit covered in prime too mixed with the pellets. I gave him some scrambled eggs yesterday too...it's hard to say if the oxbox will be any help at this point though. I'll have to monitor it for a few weeks. I do think the prime is helping a lot though and it seems to be getting him to eat things he previously wouldn't (but I was going to experiment with that later).

On a side note, he tipped over my vitamin container and spilled half of it :-\ I was a bit upset because it costs about $18.00 a container and they are small containers. Not cheap. My own fault though!

I won't go into my usual tirade about commercial breeders, but most chronic health issues occur in animals that are purchased from them. Quantity wins over quality when it comes to $$$.
peep

I couldn't agree with you more.

[peep]

Glad to hear the positive results! I'm quite familiar with the experience of a critter knocking over medicine. It seems the more expensive it is, the quicker it gets dumped!

I checked with our wildlife vet on the subject of OxBow, they use the liquid recovery formulas frequently on their critical care animals that are unable to eat their regular diet, and have huge success with it. They haven't used the pellets, because they are huge advocates of natural diet for wild. They even have a mealworm farm and keep a supply of frozen mice!

Anyway, I plan to order some through them and give it a try. It seems like an ideal product for weaning young ones.

Thanks for the info!
peep

[spiritedaway20]

Glad to hear the positive results! I'm quite familiar with the experience of a critter knocking over medicine. It seems the more expensive it is, the quicker it gets dumped!

I checked with our wildlife vet on the subject of OxBow, they use the liquid recovery formulas frequently on their critical care animals that are unable to eat their regular diet, and have huge success with it. They haven't used the pellets, because they are huge advocates of natural diet for wild. They even have a mealworm farm and keep a supply of frozen mice!

Anyway, I plan to order some through them and give it a try. It seems like an ideal product for weaning young ones.

Thanks for the info!
peep

That's interesting to discover that they use oxbow recovery formula. It's not something that is often mentioned. Oxbow, with the exception of hay, isn't really mentioned a whole lot in general really. I remember it when I hag guinea pigs, but that was mainly for hay. Thanks for checking it out and giving us that info. It looks like it has a good calcium-phosphorous ratio.

I'm guessing the mousicles are for snakes? I couldn't imagine havng a mealworm farm uggh...I have 2000 superworms and I can't even handle that! I have yet to figure out a way to fully change their bedding without taking 4 hours trying to sift it! bleh. Growing bugs isn't as nice or easy as it seems lol.

You're buying the critical care? I wonder how well it will work. Please keep us update

[violetlady]

About the Oxbow pellets, is the adult formula called "Regal Rat" the one your vet was referring to? According to their web site, a 4 month old rodent is considered adult, at least from a dietary point of view.
Thanks for all the info sharing!!!

[spiritedaway20]

Update:
I cleaned his smaller cage (that's what he is in now so that I can monitor him for a few days)). I know this is kind of gross, but he has some huge poops now (not the little pebbles he had before, but now they look like small, more elongated and beefy (like rat poops)...I wonder if the pellets are constipating him or is this not a bad sign? Also, earlier this afternoon I took him out and he seemed to be kind of wobbly again, but not nearly as bad as last time. It was ever so slight...he seemed to be walking hunched up/stiff back end. I can't really describe it. He seems to look a bit fatter, but I was wondering if it was him just be a bit more fluffy from not feeling well or from being tired. I think I want to give him more liquid calcium d3 and esbliac again...just in case. Any thoughts?

About the Oxbow pellets, is the adult formula called "Regal Rat" the one your vet was referring to? According to their web site, a 4 month old rodent is considered adult, at least from a dietary point of view.
Thanks for all the info sharing!!!

I think he was just talking about all the rodents formuals, not just one. You're right, the rat one is Regal Rat, but they also have other rodent things like healthy handfuls (for small rodents/hamsters) and the few different kinds of guinea pig foods. He told me to research it and compare nutrition info and just use it in addition to my other stuff just to get him to eat more and gain weight (if his lack of appetite is due to him being picky). Apparently picky rodents like that food, and the calcium:phosphorus ratio isn't that bad, which I believe is why he suggested it.

[spiritedaway20]

Update:
I cleaned his smaller cage (that's what he is in now so that I can monitor him for a few days)). I know this is kind of gross, but he has some huge poops now (not the little pebbles he had before, but now they look like small, more elongated and beefy (like rat poops)...I wonder if the pellets are constipating him or is this not a bad sign? Also, earlier this afternoon I took him out and he seemed to be kind of wobbly again, but not nearly as bad as last time. It was ever so slight...he seemed to be walking hunched up/stiff back end. I can't really describe it. He seems to look a bit fatter, but I was wondering if it was him just be a bit more fluffy from not feeling well or from being tired. I think I want to give him more liquid calcium d3 and esbliac again...just in case. Any thoughts?

About the Oxbow pellets, is the adult formula called "Regal Rat" the one your vet was referring to? According to their web site, a 4 month old rodent is considered adult, at least from a dietary point of view.
Thanks for all the info sharing!!!

I think he was just talking about all the rodents formuals, not just one. You're right, the rat one is Regal Rat, but they also have other rodent things like healthy handfuls (for small rodents/hamsters) and the few different kinds of guinea pig foods. He told me to research it and compare nutrition info and just use it in addition to my other stuff just to get him to eat more and gain weight (if his lack of appetite is due to him being picky). Apparently picky rodents like that food, and the calcium:phosphorus ratio isn't that bad, which I believe is why he suggested it.